Tedd Huff: 00:00:01

Welcome to FinTech Confidential, bringing you the

Tedd Huff: 00:00:05

people, tech and companies that change how you pay and get paid.

John Gordon: 00:00:11

We are living today in a historical time in that 96% of US

John Gordon: 00:00:19

households have access to a bank account.

John Gordon: 00:00:22

Well, I can tell you without question, consumers use more than

John Gordon: 00:00:25

two email addresses in 30 days.

John Gordon: 00:00:28

Their risk profile goes up exponentially.

John Gordon: 00:00:31

A landline is the riskiest phone type that any consumer can currently apply.

John Gordon: 00:00:37

With the emergence of the neo banks and the digital banks

John Gordon: 00:00:41

further complicates the matter.

John Gordon: 00:00:43

To overlook ACH would be to be overlooking the dominant.

John Gordon: 00:00:49

Payment type in the marketplace today, the way that traditional credit

John Gordon: 00:00:53

scores are delivered is virtually the exact same as it was 40 years ago.

John Gordon: 00:00:58

What we are finding is most consumers aren't comfortable

John Gordon: 00:01:01

providing that level of access.

John Gordon: 00:01:03

I believe over the course of the next five years, we are going to

John Gordon: 00:01:08

see a consumer empowerment era.

John Gordon: 00:01:11

Consumers are going to have increased control over what they

John Gordon: 00:01:16

share and with whom they share.

John Gordon: 00:01:18

It, and as a result of that, there will be a leveling of the playing field

John Gordon: 00:01:24

in terms of financial institutions.

John Gordon: 00:01:26

Open banking isn't necessarily the panacea that some people perceive it to be.

John Gordon: 00:01:33

We took two payments companies and put them together.

John Gordon: 00:01:36

Which gave us a lot of experience with a broad set of banks.

John Gordon: 00:01:41

71% of consumers want to be active in the process for a fairer credit scenario.

John Gordon: 00:01:48

We want to be part of that process.

Tedd Huff: 00:01:50

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Welcome to FinTech Confidentials Leaders one-on-one series where we

Tedd Huff: 00:02:57

bring you face-to-face with people shaping the future of FinTech.

Tedd Huff: 00:03:01

I'm your host, Ted Huff, and together we'll explore the latest trends,

Tedd Huff: 00:03:05

challenges, and success stories In FinTech each episode, we feature

Tedd Huff: 00:03:09

in-depth conversations with industry leaders who share their experiences,

Tedd Huff: 00:03:13

insights, and strategies for navigating the ever evolving landscape.

Tedd Huff: 00:03:18

FinTech, whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting out,

Tedd Huff: 00:03:22

you'll find valuable takeaways to help you stay ahead of this dynamic field.

Tedd Huff: 00:03:27

So let's go ahead.

Tedd Huff: 00:03:28

Get started.

Tedd Huff: 00:03:30

I'm super thrilled to introduce you to John Gordon, the CEO of Validify.

Tedd Huff: 00:03:36

Now, John has one heck of an impressive background in FinTech,

Tedd Huff: 00:03:41

and honestly, he and I both started.

Tedd Huff: 00:03:44

Before it was even called FinTech, and it's been over 25 years that

Tedd Huff: 00:03:48

we've both been doing this, and he's held positions at companies

Tedd Huff: 00:03:52

like TransUnion, online Resources, premier Global Services, and Rivian.

Tedd Huff: 00:03:58

MedAvante at Validify, which he joined as president in February, 2022.

Tedd Huff: 00:04:05

He's been focused on providing predictive bank account and payment intelligence.

Tedd Huff: 00:04:10

Now this company is dedicated to helping organizations validate bank accounts,

Tedd Huff: 00:04:15

detect fraud, and assess credit risk.

Tedd Huff: 00:04:18

Through unique applications of data, and in this episode, we're going

Tedd Huff: 00:04:22

to cover the current challenges in FinTech, including fraud prevention

Tedd Huff: 00:04:26

and compliance with regulations.

Tedd Huff: 00:04:29

How Validify addresses these challenges with our advanced solutions, the

Tedd Huff: 00:04:33

role of alternative data in enhancing credit risk assessment and improving

Tedd Huff: 00:04:38

financial inclusion insights.

Tedd Huff: 00:04:40

On open banking and its impact on customer choice and emerging trends

Tedd Huff: 00:04:45

in FinTech that are shaping how we will be moving forward in the future.

Tedd Huff: 00:04:48

So I hope you'll join us as we explore these topics with John Gordon

Tedd Huff: 00:04:52

from validify and gain valuable insights into evolving landscape.

Tedd Huff: 00:04:56

FinTech.

Tedd Huff: 00:04:57

John, welcome to FinTech Confidential.

John Gordon: 00:05:00

Thanks, Ted.

John Gordon: 00:05:01

I appreciate you letting me be

Tedd Huff: 00:05:02

here.

Tedd Huff: 00:05:02

There are some exciting connections as we were talking about while

Tedd Huff: 00:05:06

we were preparing between FinTech Confidential and some of the partners

Tedd Huff: 00:05:11

you have over there at Validify.

Tedd Huff: 00:05:13

Companies such as Best Eggs, COO, Alex Rhodes has been on, and Tim Lee, the

Tedd Huff: 00:05:19

founder of Lend API, has also been on.

Tedd Huff: 00:05:21

It has been extremely fascinating to me how Validify has supported these

Tedd Huff: 00:05:25

organizations, and I'm really excited to dive deeper into these stories

Tedd Huff: 00:05:29

as we talk about 'em more today.

John Gordon: 00:05:31

Yeah, I appreciate that.

John Gordon: 00:05:32

I saw both of those gentlemen on here in the not too distant past, and it

John Gordon: 00:05:36

was great to see both a partner and a client spend some time with you, and

John Gordon: 00:05:41

I'm glad to be able to do that today.

Tedd Huff: 00:05:43

I would be remiss if I didn't.

Tedd Huff: 00:05:47

Start off with a leadership question first.

Tedd Huff: 00:05:51

You've been in financial services for over two and a half decades, just like

Tedd Huff: 00:05:55

me, and even before it was called FinTech.

Tedd Huff: 00:05:59

What would you say is the biggest lesson.

Tedd Huff: 00:06:03

You have learned and how,

John Gordon: 00:06:05

boy, I tell you, you know, I think part of this, Ted, is you're, you're

John Gordon: 00:06:08

pointing out that we're both seasoned.

John Gordon: 00:06:11

I liked that choice of words that you had.

John Gordon: 00:06:14

I think the thing that I have is that things change.

John Gordon: 00:06:19

Beyond and outside of your control.

John Gordon: 00:06:22

And the critical aspect of it is to stay true to your purpose and

John Gordon: 00:06:27

the team that you have around you.

John Gordon: 00:06:29

And as I think back to Operation choke point, when we were at

John Gordon: 00:06:34

Factor Trust where we lost more than 50% of our revenue in a week.

John Gordon: 00:06:38

Oh my goodness.

John Gordon: 00:06:39

Or back to your point.

John Gordon: 00:06:41

Back to Dion in the late nineties when the dotcom bubble burst and

John Gordon: 00:06:46

the impact that it had to all of us.

John Gordon: 00:06:48

We had to realize that we just had to stay the course and stay

John Gordon: 00:06:53

true to what we were doing.

John Gordon: 00:06:54

To have the chance to continue on and to take a breath, survey the landscape,

John Gordon: 00:06:59

and not react in a reflexive action, but to take the time to really assess what

John Gordon: 00:07:06

happens and see where you go from there.

Tedd Huff: 00:07:08

Let's fast forward a little bit, right?

Tedd Huff: 00:07:09

You've seen a lot, you've been part of this a while.

Tedd Huff: 00:07:12

How have you seen ACH transaction evolve, and how are you seeing companies manage

Tedd Huff: 00:07:20

the risks that are associated with that?

Tedd Huff: 00:07:22

Evolution.

John Gordon: 00:07:23

So ACH transactions, it's almost like they are the

John Gordon: 00:07:28

constant, the standard and they continue to grow above and beyond

John Gordon: 00:07:32

what I think most people realize.

John Gordon: 00:07:35

And now with the emergence of realtime payments.

John Gordon: 00:07:38

And pay by bank.

John Gordon: 00:07:40

There are opportunities within this legacy payment type that are emerging, that are

John Gordon: 00:07:46

offering people new and expanded benefits in utilizing this trusted ACH solution.

John Gordon: 00:07:54

An example of that for us is our partnership with PDI and they

John Gordon: 00:07:59

support the attachment of payment capabilities and loyalty cards

John Gordon: 00:08:05

for convenience stores, the important aspect of that is the validation

John Gordon: 00:08:09

of those accounts and the ability to attach consumer to the account.

John Gordon: 00:08:14

That is an exciting opportunity for consumers to have more payment

John Gordon: 00:08:19

options for service providers.

John Gordon: 00:08:22

Like the convenience stores to support more payment types that potentially

John Gordon: 00:08:27

offer an opportunity for them to lower their transaction processing costs.

Tedd Huff: 00:08:32

I was looking at the recent report on ACH transaction,

Tedd Huff: 00:08:36

risks that Validify put out, and one of the things that caught my eye is

Tedd Huff: 00:08:40

that high risk accounts experience.

Tedd Huff: 00:08:42

11 and a half times more ACH returns to a lower risk account and only 14% of those

Tedd Huff: 00:08:49

payments really ever become successful.

Tedd Huff: 00:08:52

Can you help us understand the challenges that you've seen in spotting those

Tedd Huff: 00:08:58

high risk indicators, whether it be.

Tedd Huff: 00:09:01

Ahead of time or during the transaction.

John Gordon: 00:09:03

We are living today in a historical time in that 96% of US

John Gordon: 00:09:11

households have access to a bank account.

John Gordon: 00:09:14

And according to the FDIC, that is the highest rate we've ever experienced,

John Gordon: 00:09:19

and we would attribute a lot of that.

John Gordon: 00:09:21

To Covid and the wise move by banks to make online account

John Gordon: 00:09:27

opening easier for consumers.

John Gordon: 00:09:30

But there's offshoot of that too, and it created a lot of velocity, a lot of change

John Gordon: 00:09:36

in those consumer account connections.

John Gordon: 00:09:39

And what we found, to your point, is that oftentimes when a consumer struggles.

John Gordon: 00:09:45

With their bank account or a bank account is a legacy account, or

John Gordon: 00:09:49

in the instance that it's fraud.

John Gordon: 00:09:51

It's the same accounts again and again who are having these return challenges.

John Gordon: 00:09:57

But not all aach H returns are created equally.

John Gordon: 00:10:00

Mm-hmm.

John Gordon: 00:10:00

Some of these returns are what we call fatal returns.

John Gordon: 00:10:04

In which scenario, the person who is trying to collect

John Gordon: 00:10:08

the funds has no recourse.

John Gordon: 00:10:10

NSF is a reality for all.

John Gordon: 00:10:13

Payments via ACH and they kind come and go.

John Gordon: 00:10:17

But what we find is a consumer who has an Aach H account, if it's an NSF in the

John Gordon: 00:10:23

first scenario, it's oftentimes gonna be an NSF in the second scenario as well.

Tedd Huff: 00:10:28

One of the things that I'd love to get your perspective on, I was

Tedd Huff: 00:10:31

wondering how do these virtual DDAs.

Tedd Huff: 00:10:36

Impact.

Tedd Huff: 00:10:36

Impact the risk profiles.

Tedd Huff: 00:10:38

I remember back in the days when I would work with prepaid companies on

Tedd Huff: 00:10:44

the credit card side of the house, and we did a virtual DDA on those

Tedd Huff: 00:10:48

accounts, and then I've worked with a lot of banking as a service providers

Tedd Huff: 00:10:52

and helping them get through the next stage for themselves, and they're using.

Tedd Huff: 00:10:57

Virtual DDAs, and then I have software companies that I'm helping that

Tedd Huff: 00:11:00

are building out an entire suite of services, and they're using virtual DDAs.

Tedd Huff: 00:11:06

I would love to understand how the use of these.

Tedd Huff: 00:11:09

Virtual DDAs, I lemme see if I can ask, say it one more time.

Tedd Huff: 00:11:13

Uh, how that's impacting the way that Validify is managing

Tedd Huff: 00:11:20

scores and determining the risks.

John Gordon: 00:11:22

A lot of this, any sort of DA and, and I'm not sure you're

John Gordon: 00:11:26

directly referring to, but the emergence of the neo banks and the digital

John Gordon: 00:11:31

banks further complicates the matter.

John Gordon: 00:11:34

I think at the outset of any account where it's difficult to attribute a

John Gordon: 00:11:38

connection between the consumer and the account, whether it be payment

John Gordon: 00:11:43

history or any sort of time continuum where you can connect that consumer

John Gordon: 00:11:49

with that account over the course of time creates uncertainty and the.

John Gordon: 00:11:58

Positive payments to that account, the less risk there is in the payment process.

John Gordon: 00:12:02

So what we have seen specifically in the case of the neo banks, is

John Gordon: 00:12:08

that oftentimes service providers are staying away from the neo banks

John Gordon: 00:12:13

because they don't have maturity or experience with those accounts.

John Gordon: 00:12:18

And frankly, they have become, in some cases difficult as consumers are using

John Gordon: 00:12:24

them in, in somewhat transient fashion.

John Gordon: 00:12:26

We see oftentimes that some of our lending clients are telling us we

John Gordon: 00:12:31

have an applicant apply with a more traditional account only to want to change

John Gordon: 00:12:36

that account into a Neobank account.

John Gordon: 00:12:38

Mm-hmm.

John Gordon: 00:12:39

Later in the process.

John Gordon: 00:12:40

And they're guarding against those things or trying to guard against those things.

John Gordon: 00:12:45

But now we're having people tell us we want to be able to differentiate.

John Gordon: 00:12:50

Between, between a virtual DDA user, a neo bank account user, so that we can

John Gordon: 00:12:55

assign some sort of performance aspect, because as they grow in popularity, so

John Gordon: 00:13:01

too does the opportunity for someone to do business with those folks who are

John Gordon: 00:13:05

utilizing those accounts in the right way.

Tedd Huff: 00:13:08

One of the really cool things about Validify is the

Tedd Huff: 00:13:10

whole value proposition behind it is really to mitigate the fraud.

Tedd Huff: 00:13:16

Like you were talking about from lenders, from service providers, from

Tedd Huff: 00:13:21

these types of risks, how does fraud impact the customer acquisition?

Tedd Huff: 00:13:27

And the risk mitigation tactics that your clients are using today.

John Gordon: 00:13:33

In today's day and age, there are a lot of folks, whether it's

John Gordon: 00:13:37

buy now, pay later, or lenders who are funding the entire principal at the point

John Gordon: 00:13:43

of acquisition who are frontloading.

John Gordon: 00:13:46

A lot of the risk when we have accounts whether it's first party fraud which is

John Gordon: 00:13:51

a prevalent scenario in any transaction where you have the merchandise as

John Gordon: 00:13:58

the consumer, or you have the full principle amount as the consumer where

John Gordon: 00:14:03

the inability to debit that account later or some change in that account

John Gordon: 00:14:08

later materially harms the product and it ends up resulting in an increase in

John Gordon: 00:14:14

the cost of credit across the board.

Tedd Huff: 00:14:17

Can you give us an example of one of those scenarios that.

Tedd Huff: 00:14:22

Most people would understand.

John Gordon: 00:14:23

Sure.

John Gordon: 00:14:24

So we work with a personal loan lender.

John Gordon: 00:14:27

They fund you the entire principle via ACH.

John Gordon: 00:14:30

So if you, at the time of application as a consumer list, a bank account.

John Gordon: 00:14:37

That you can access for the purpose of getting those funds, but then

John Gordon: 00:14:41

you terminate that relationship through a stop payment or any

John Gordon: 00:14:46

sort of termination via the bank.

John Gordon: 00:14:48

You have created this scenario where you now have the funds and

John Gordon: 00:14:52

the lender has no recourse to go back against those accounts.

John Gordon: 00:14:55

It's a.

John Gordon: 00:14:58

That it's oftentimes the same combinations of routing numbers and

John Gordon: 00:15:03

direct deposit accounts where these things are happening in a lot of

John Gordon: 00:15:09

velocity in a short period of time.

John Gordon: 00:15:12

These fraudsters will set these things up.

John Gordon: 00:15:14

They sort of interact with them oftentimes through lead aggregation partners where

John Gordon: 00:15:21

they go and apply with someone other than the lender and those leads are shopped.

John Gordon: 00:15:25

They fund the loans and the consumers go on.

John Gordon: 00:15:28

That looks an awful lot like a first party fraud scenario where the

John Gordon: 00:15:33

consumer opts not to repay, but we have found that a consumer who utilizes.

John Gordon: 00:15:40

A direct deposit account in concert with an identity.

John Gordon: 00:15:45

Oftentimes they will make a number of payments and then they start enacting stop

John Gordon: 00:15:51

payment scenarios and rapid succession, or they're changing things that are

John Gordon: 00:15:56

ancillary to the PII, ancillary isn't.

John Gordon: 00:16:02

The other contact elements.

John Gordon: 00:16:04

So I can tell you without question, consumers use more than

John Gordon: 00:16:07

two email addresses in 30 days.

John Gordon: 00:16:10

Their risk profile goes up exponentially.

John Gordon: 00:16:13

If we have a direct deposit account that we've seen greater than five consumers

John Gordon: 00:16:18

with, it's going to be problematic.

Tedd Huff: 00:16:20

I wouldn't have thought of the same DDA.

Tedd Huff: 00:16:25

For multiple consumers like that is not something that just

Tedd Huff: 00:16:29

sits at top of mind for me.

John Gordon: 00:16:31

It seems obvious, Ted, but we did a recent study for a

John Gordon: 00:16:35

lender where greater than 10% of their population, the consumers we could

John Gordon: 00:16:40

connect to greater than 20 accounts.

John Gordon: 00:16:43

And then we like to look at it both from the consumer to the account

John Gordon: 00:16:47

and then the account to the all of the disparate number of consumers

John Gordon: 00:16:51

we've seen with those accounts.

John Gordon: 00:16:53

And then we're validating the phone number, the email address, not just

John Gordon: 00:16:58

from the standpoint of have we seen it with that consumer, but who's

John Gordon: 00:17:03

the carrier of the phone number?

John Gordon: 00:17:04

What type of phone is it?

John Gordon: 00:17:06

For you and I, again, back to the fact that we're dating ourselves a landline

John Gordon: 00:17:12

is the riskiest phone type that any consumer can currently apply with

Tedd Huff: 00:17:19

the most common cause of bad customer experience.

Tedd Huff: 00:17:22

Isn't that high tech?

Tedd Huff: 00:17:24

It's embarrassingly simple.

Tedd Huff: 00:17:26

Yep.

Tedd Huff: 00:17:27

It's answering questions.

Tedd Huff: 00:17:29

In e-commerce, it's really easy to get bogged down with common questions,

Tedd Huff: 00:17:34

whether that's Where's my package, how do I return or exchange this item?

Tedd Huff: 00:17:39

Or just to cancel a subscription.

Tedd Huff: 00:17:41

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Tedd Huff: 00:17:47

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Tedd Huff: 00:17:51

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Tedd Huff: 00:18:00

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Tedd Huff: 00:18:01

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Tedd Huff: 00:18:08

That sounds so counterintuitive.

Tedd Huff: 00:18:12

It does to me.

Tedd Huff: 00:18:13

You think landline would establish security?

Tedd Huff: 00:18:16

A mobile phone would be the least secure and somewhere in the

Tedd Huff: 00:18:20

middle a voiceover IP might land.

John Gordon: 00:18:23

I agree with you, but that's not the case.

John Gordon: 00:18:25

And if you had told me that.

John Gordon: 00:18:27

Five years ago, I would've thought you were insane.

John Gordon: 00:18:30

But the reality today is you'd rather do business with a prepaid cell phone

John Gordon: 00:18:34

than you would somebody applying with a landline statistically crazy.

John Gordon: 00:18:38

That is so crazy.

Tedd Huff: 00:18:39

Help us understand, like, what are the reasons you're

Tedd Huff: 00:18:41

finding that's causing that?

John Gordon: 00:18:43

We have the benefit of a billion inquiries that we've seen.

John Gordon: 00:18:48

So across that our data science team will look at the frequency of change

John Gordon: 00:18:54

with all of those different pieces.

John Gordon: 00:18:57

Specifically, why a landline?

John Gordon: 00:18:59

I would describe a lot of that to the fact that there just aren't

John Gordon: 00:19:02

many landlines still in service.

John Gordon: 00:19:06

And the ability to quantify; I cangive you more data on a cell

John Gordon: 00:19:11

phone because that data's become more normalized and available

John Gordon: 00:19:15

than what I can give on landline.

John Gordon: 00:19:17

Potentially I can utilize a landline without the ability to validate.

John Gordon: 00:19:23

Beyond the fact that it is indeed a landline.

John Gordon: 00:19:25

I can't tell you as many recent metrics about the attachment to the consumer, the

John Gordon: 00:19:32

frequency of payments that are being made.

Tedd Huff: 00:19:35

Oh, it's riskier because you have less information about it.

Tedd Huff: 00:19:38

A hundred

John Gordon: 00:19:39

percent.

John Gordon: 00:19:40

The ability quantify and the more

Tedd Huff: 00:19:41

information you have about that identifier, that phone number.

Tedd Huff: 00:19:46

Gives you the ability to, to feel more confident and comfortable with

Tedd Huff: 00:19:52

the person requesting the information or the person being validated so that

Tedd Huff: 00:19:57

that actually does make a lot of sense.

Tedd Huff: 00:19:59

I remember whenever a mobile number would come through on an application,

Tedd Huff: 00:20:04

whether it be for merchant services, a loan, an account opening.

Tedd Huff: 00:20:09

It having to be manually reviewed?

John Gordon: 00:20:11

A hundred percent.

John Gordon: 00:20:13

I think back to the fact that everybody I knew who had a landline

John Gordon: 00:20:17

was my parents or the people that I went to high school with, and

John Gordon: 00:20:21

you kept them forever, seemingly.

John Gordon: 00:20:23

Yeah.

John Gordon: 00:20:23

The frequency of change with cell phones these days, they're almost

John Gordon: 00:20:27

disposable in some scenarios.

Tedd Huff: 00:20:30

I want you to walk us through a specific client outcome.

Tedd Huff: 00:20:36

That was achieved with Validifies tools.

Tedd Huff: 00:20:39

Alright.

Tedd Huff: 00:20:40

And I would love, you could share their name, but if you can, I understand.

Tedd Huff: 00:20:42

Well, I can,

John Gordon: 00:20:44

and it's the, I'm it's, it's my personal favorite at the moment.

John Gordon: 00:20:48

It's PDI Technologies.

John Gordon: 00:20:50

I mentioned them a little bit ago.

John Gordon: 00:20:52

They attach pay by bank capabilities onto loyalty cards.

John Gordon: 00:20:57

So think about if you're at your local convenience store and they're

John Gordon: 00:21:01

gonna give you certain incentives.

Tedd Huff: 00:21:03

I'm starting to wonder.

Tedd Huff: 00:21:05

I've in Phoenix, Arizona, circle K. There you go.

Tedd Huff: 00:21:09

Is based here.

Tedd Huff: 00:21:10

And I'm wondering.

Tedd Huff: 00:21:12

There might be a connection with their EasyPay.

John Gordon: 00:21:14

There just might be.

John Gordon: 00:21:16

So what we do in that scenario, and it's one of my favorite applications for this

John Gordon: 00:21:22

Ex Express reason, if you were a consumer who wants to enroll in that convenience

John Gordon: 00:21:29

store's pay by bank capability.

John Gordon: 00:21:32

When you go to enroll in that process, the consumer has the option

John Gordon: 00:21:37

of selecting whether or not they'd like to log into their bank account.

John Gordon: 00:21:40

There are so many advantages to service providers, lenders, for consumers

John Gordon: 00:21:46

who log into their bank account.

John Gordon: 00:21:48

You get.

John Gordon: 00:21:50

Account ownership.

John Gordon: 00:21:51

You get 90 days worth of transactions.

John Gordon: 00:21:54

In some scenarios.

John Gordon: 00:21:55

You get a verifiable account, routing number, combination.

John Gordon: 00:22:00

All of those things are very beneficial, but what we are finding

John Gordon: 00:22:03

is most consumers aren't comfortable providing that level of access.

John Gordon: 00:22:08

So we offer them an option.

John Gordon: 00:22:09

where they can list their account and routing number

John Gordon: 00:22:12

from that standpoint or from that point in time, validify will then, based on

John Gordon: 00:22:18

the risk profile of that consumer in the account and the depth of information

John Gordon: 00:22:23

that we have, offer the opportunity to either validate that account from a fraud

John Gordon: 00:22:29

perspective to conduct an OFAC check.

John Gordon: 00:22:33

Whatever it is that PDI.

John Gordon: 00:22:36

For each individual consumer to get them enrolled, increase their acceptance in

John Gordon: 00:22:42

the program, and enable that payment instrument, we're able to help them

John Gordon: 00:22:46

to maximize the opportunity to get those consumers enrolled in the process

John Gordon: 00:22:51

and having the option to pay by bank.

Tedd Huff: 00:22:53

I can only imagine that this has a much broader impact on

Tedd Huff: 00:22:58

reducing the financial risks as well as.

Tedd Huff: 00:23:03

The ongoing customer relationships, what have you seen from your clients

Tedd Huff: 00:23:09

that have done these sorts of things to verify and validate ahead of time?

Tedd Huff: 00:23:14

Using your technology.

John Gordon: 00:23:16

We have seen clients in general, they struggle with the amount

John Gordon: 00:23:20

of friction that they wanna inject in any onboarding or payment edition process.

John Gordon: 00:23:28

They want to ensure as much.

John Gordon: 00:23:31

Safety in the process and security in the processes, they are able

John Gordon: 00:23:35

while limiting the friction of what they're asking their consumers to do.

John Gordon: 00:23:40

We call that manage friction.

John Gordon: 00:23:42

So there's some scenarios where you absolutely wanna inject some

John Gordon: 00:23:45

friction in the process before you make a $10,000 payment to Ted

John Gordon: 00:23:50

Huff to ensure that he is in fact.

John Gordon: 00:23:52

Ted Huff.

John Gordon: 00:23:53

There's other instances where you wanna make the process as simple as

John Gordon: 00:23:57

possible to keep going so that you don't have an abandonment scenario

John Gordon: 00:24:02

and people ultimately don't walk away.

Tedd Huff: 00:24:05

Well, I'll take that $10,000 deposit without any issues.

Tedd Huff: 00:24:09

Just let me know how I get it all set up.

Tedd Huff: 00:24:11

You talked about looking at risk scores and looking at all this information.

Tedd Huff: 00:24:16

I'd love to understand how you are seeing the impact of AI machine learning.

Tedd Huff: 00:24:24

Mm-hmm.

Tedd Huff: 00:24:24

When it's used in data analytics, and most importantly, on how it's

Tedd Huff: 00:24:30

helping provide actionable insights.

Tedd Huff: 00:24:33

I. For those, well, your clients.

John Gordon: 00:24:35

At the risk of, uh, being controversial with my former industry

John Gordon: 00:24:40

mates in the traditional credit scoring world, I'll say it this way.

John Gordon: 00:24:46

The way that traditional credit scores are delivered is virtually these

John Gordon: 00:24:50

exact same as it was 40 years ago.

John Gordon: 00:24:52

The way that consumers acquire credit.

John Gordon: 00:24:57

Ally different than it was 40 years ago.

John Gordon: 00:24:59

The amount and availability of data and the willingness of the consumers share

John Gordon: 00:25:05

information for what they consider a better experience is vastly different.

John Gordon: 00:25:11

And when you compound that by the fact that we're now in a world where buy

John Gordon: 00:25:16

now pay later transactions, although hugely adopted, doesn't reside in

John Gordon: 00:25:22

traditional credit scoring or does in differing degrees medical debt, the

John Gordon: 00:25:27

medical debt still exists, but you can't see it in a traditional credit file is

John Gordon: 00:25:32

making it really difficult for service providers and lenders to navigate.

John Gordon: 00:25:37

So, The emergence of ai alternative credit, data's availability, and

John Gordon: 00:25:43

the ability to use it in generating analytical models that predict things

John Gordon: 00:25:49

and the consumer coming alongside that, and to an extent, being willing

John Gordon: 00:25:53

to participate in that process.

John Gordon: 00:25:56

Is a seACHange as people try and put consumers in the best

John Gordon: 00:26:00

product for their situation.

John Gordon: 00:26:04

Minimizing risk against all of that in the background is savvy fraudsters who are

John Gordon: 00:26:13

relentless in their ability to find ways.

John Gordon: 00:26:17

Loop holes different ways to Impact all of these things and find ways

John Gordon: 00:26:23

to skirt the systems so that even your best laid plans, oftentimes

John Gordon: 00:26:28

there are holes in your defenses.

Tedd Huff: 00:26:30

I've recently had a lot of conversations with companies

Tedd Huff: 00:26:35

that are looking to solve the authentication of individuals,

Tedd Huff: 00:26:40

especially with all the new technology that's come out and looking beyond.

Tedd Huff: 00:26:45

Pictures, video, photo, voice, like, there's so many different things, but

Tedd Huff: 00:26:50

I, I wanna understand what you're seeing with all of the behavioral analytics

Tedd Huff: 00:26:55

and all the different things that, that you all are doing over at Validify.

Tedd Huff: 00:26:59

You mentioned the underwriting, but what about the operational side of the house?

Tedd Huff: 00:27:03

How is it helping there?

John Gordon: 00:27:04

We are squarely focused on account validation.

John Gordon: 00:27:09

And the ability to cover as many accounts as we can.

John Gordon: 00:27:13

We recently announced a collaboration with JP Morgan Chase.

John Gordon: 00:27:17

Mm-hmm.

John Gordon: 00:27:18

That will give us the ability to utilize their data in concert with

John Gordon: 00:27:24

our own data to help people on the financial operations side make.

John Gordon: 00:27:29

Better decisions based on a consumer, the account that they're providing

John Gordon: 00:27:35

in an onboarding phase, about how do we drive the treatment strategy?

John Gordon: 00:27:40

Are we gonna be able to trust this payment?

John Gordon: 00:27:42

Can we extend service to this consumer?

John Gordon: 00:27:45

Can we extend credit or make access to credit easier for that consumer?

John Gordon: 00:27:50

So, all of those things work together.

John Gordon: 00:27:54

Part of what you're talking about is fraud, and for us, we don't consider

John Gordon: 00:27:58

ourselves a provider because is so big.

John Gordon: 00:28:03

We do identify where we see potential fraud in concert with the consumer and

John Gordon: 00:28:11

their bank account and the PII that they're utilizing in a transactional basis

John Gordon: 00:28:16

to say, lot of frequency of change here.

John Gordon: 00:28:20

We've seen that account and allow for our clients to determine.

John Gordon: 00:28:25

Based on, am I just onboarding this consumer?

John Gordon: 00:28:29

Am I taking a payment from this consumer?

John Gordon: 00:28:31

I'm, am I extending credit how they wanna adjust accordingly?

Tedd Huff: 00:28:36

You're getting additional data sets from JPM and it is super

Tedd Huff: 00:28:41

important to leverage the most robust data sets you possibly can so you

Tedd Huff: 00:28:46

can provide those action law outcomes based upon the rules that are set.

Tedd Huff: 00:28:51

I'm starting to think.

Tedd Huff: 00:28:54

It's less about finding the fraud and more about finding the good stuff.

Tedd Huff: 00:29:04

How much more good stuff can you find even when it looks bad?

Tedd Huff: 00:29:10

What do you think about that?

John Gordon: 00:29:11

I think that is well said.

John Gordon: 00:29:13

I might take it one step further and say how, when I recognize.

John Gordon: 00:29:19

That something is good.

John Gordon: 00:29:21

Do I fast track that consumer or that relationship into being a valuable client

John Gordon: 00:29:29

so that I'm not injecting universal friction that is offputting to someone

John Gordon: 00:29:34

who's potentially shopping for services?

John Gordon: 00:29:38

So how am I. Based on the inputs that I have making the best decision

John Gordon: 00:29:43

I can make, and then treating each of those consumers independently.

John Gordon: 00:29:48

Said the JP Morgan Chase right on the money.

John Gordon: 00:29:52

Coverage Wins!

John Gordon: 00:29:54

The ability to have material coverage, not just of the top 25 banks, but

John Gordon: 00:29:59

across the board so that you're covering the long tail of credit unions and

John Gordon: 00:30:04

independent community banks and the people who elect to bank in those

John Gordon: 00:30:09

types of scenarios aren't paying a penalty based on a service provider's

John Gordon: 00:30:14

inability to quantify those accounts.

Tedd Huff: 00:30:17

Well, you and I talked about this.

Tedd Huff: 00:30:19

Previous to us recording service providers that are out there today, a lot of

Tedd Huff: 00:30:24

them, unbeknownst to a lot of people, really are, the way they're covering the

Tedd Huff: 00:30:30

long tail is, is through lower level.

Tedd Huff: 00:30:34

Partnerships, not like a JP Morgan, but lower level partnerships, or

Tedd Huff: 00:30:38

they're doing screen scraped style things to get the information.

Tedd Huff: 00:30:44

They're impersonating users.

Tedd Huff: 00:30:46

Like all of these things that I. Should to a consumer if they

Tedd Huff: 00:30:50

knew, be a very risky proposition for them to work with that group.

Tedd Huff: 00:30:57

What that also makes me think of is if I'm one of those organizations

Tedd Huff: 00:31:02

that's leveraging that tool, it has to cause additional challenges.

Tedd Huff: 00:31:06

In integrations and my operational workflows and all these different things,

Tedd Huff: 00:31:11

and I can say firsthand, I've had the benefit, I don't know if I would call

Tedd Huff: 00:31:16

it benefit, but the opportunity to learn how each one of these solutions

Tedd Huff: 00:31:21

doesn't fit the bill a lot of times.

Tedd Huff: 00:31:25

Can you help us understand, obviously JP Morgan, but what

Tedd Huff: 00:31:30

are some of the other ways.

Tedd Huff: 00:31:32

You're helping remove the challenges of integrating.

Tedd Huff: 00:31:39

External technologies to make these workflows so that my dev

Tedd Huff: 00:31:43

team doesn't have to create a whole stack for each separate integration.

Tedd Huff: 00:31:48

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Tedd Huff: 00:31:54

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Tedd Huff: 00:31:55

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Tedd Huff: 00:32:02

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Tedd Huff: 00:32:06

Today,

John Gordon: 00:32:08

I think the example you just gave, if I were to group them, I

John Gordon: 00:32:12

would say that's exception handling.

John Gordon: 00:32:15

And I think that people in essence would be shocked at how many bank

John Gordon: 00:32:21

statements, paycheck statements, are still being faxed or scanned

John Gordon: 00:32:26

in an application process simply.

John Gordon: 00:32:32

We are unable to quantify the consumer bank relationship, and so the way that

John Gordon: 00:32:39

Validify helps with that is we took two payments companies and put them together,

John Gordon: 00:32:44

which gave us a lot of experience with a broad set of banks and even larger set

John Gordon: 00:32:51

of consumers where we've been able to.

John Gordon: 00:32:54

Watch those consumer relationships, see how they change over the course of time,

John Gordon: 00:33:00

see what the trusted payment accounts are, and be able to help our clients say

John Gordon: 00:33:06

that's a stable account with a person that we've seen over the course of time.

John Gordon: 00:33:11

The total number of people accessing that account.

John Gordon: 00:33:15

Within the bounds of what you would expect go forward with that consumer.

John Gordon: 00:33:20

And so from a dev standpoint, anything I can automate improves the experience

John Gordon: 00:33:25

of the consumer, so simply by decreasing the total number of people

John Gordon: 00:33:30

that belong in that exception queue.

John Gordon: 00:33:33

I'm driving down the cost of doing business and improving the likelihood that

John Gordon: 00:33:38

the consumer's ultimately gonna take the service that I provide and utilize it.

Tedd Huff: 00:33:43

You've got someone like myself who has multiple bank accounts,

John Gordon: 00:33:48

okay,

Tedd Huff: 00:33:48

at multiple financial institutions, but none of

Tedd Huff: 00:33:51

them see the full picture.

Tedd Huff: 00:33:54

Of Ted Huff.

Tedd Huff: 00:33:55

The closest thing to anybody that has a full picture of Ted

Tedd Huff: 00:33:59

Huff is probably American Express

John Gordon: 00:34:02

Fair.

John Gordon: 00:34:02

I was gonna say Mrs. Huff, but

Tedd Huff: 00:34:05

we'll leave her out of it for today.

John Gordon: 00:34:07

But that's a great point.

John Gordon: 00:34:09

So I was doing some reading on a recent study that said 77% of

John Gordon: 00:34:15

Americans have access to a credit card.

John Gordon: 00:34:19

23% of Americans completely do not how those consumers manage their

John Gordon: 00:34:28

credit card debt obligations is very different.

John Gordon: 00:34:32

Some people use it like a revolving line of credit that

John Gordon: 00:34:35

they max up, sometimes pay down.

John Gordon: 00:34:38

Some people are operating at fully leveraged capacities a

John Gordon: 00:34:43

hundred percent of the time.

John Gordon: 00:34:44

So I agree with you from a spending and a recurring standpoint, it's huge.

John Gordon: 00:34:51

But I think part of that has been based upon the fact paying in a

John Gordon: 00:34:57

card not present scenario via ACH hasn't been as available as

John Gordon: 00:35:01

it has, it'll be going forward.

John Gordon: 00:35:05

I had somebody tell me not long ago that there was an analysis done that the cost

John Gordon: 00:35:10

of a pizza paid for with a credit card via a consumer who doesn't fully pay off

John Gordon: 00:35:16

their debt on a. Cyclical basis can end up averaging a hundred dollars for the pizza.

John Gordon: 00:35:23

So if I'm a consumer, if I have the ability to pay by bank and it's as I

John Gordon: 00:35:31

intend one pizza one time, I enjoy it.

John Gordon: 00:35:34

I've paid for it, it's over.

John Gordon: 00:35:36

Does that potentially change my behavior?

Tedd Huff: 00:35:38

That is a discussion that I've had with many of my friends.

Tedd Huff: 00:35:42

That are on the board of the Faster Payments Council.

Tedd Huff: 00:35:45

We talk about this a lot.

Tedd Huff: 00:35:47

Ease of use, right?

Tedd Huff: 00:35:49

Currently isn't there for your daily spend categories like pizza would fall into,

Tedd Huff: 00:35:56

coffee, would fall into heck, even paying your accountant for the quarterlies.

Tedd Huff: 00:36:00

He said, Hey, the fastest way to pay me.

Tedd Huff: 00:36:04

He's using Venmo.

John Gordon: 00:36:05

Interesting.

Tedd Huff: 00:36:06

And I was like, all right, well that's really cool, but it

Tedd Huff: 00:36:08

doesn't integrate into the accounting software you asked me to use.

Tedd Huff: 00:36:12

So we're gonna use ACH between he and I going back and forth to

Tedd Huff: 00:36:16

get everything lined up properly.

Tedd Huff: 00:36:19

It took us about a week to make sure that everything was right.

Tedd Huff: 00:36:21

I

John Gordon: 00:36:22

totally agree with you.

John Gordon: 00:36:24

That the diversity of payment instruments, payment avenues that

John Gordon: 00:36:30

is currently in the market today is greater than it's ever been.

John Gordon: 00:36:35

But I would say this to you, at the end of the day, when you look year over

John Gordon: 00:36:39

year, ACH payments continues to grow.

John Gordon: 00:36:43

They grow in volume regardless of sector, whether it's person

John Gordon: 00:36:48

to person, bill, pay, any.

John Gordon: 00:36:51

Category that you wanna select ACH payments grow in number and value.

John Gordon: 00:36:57

And I think that in and of itself says that while Venmo, Zelle, all of

John Gordon: 00:37:04

these different payments scenarios will continue to grow and thrive.

John Gordon: 00:37:08

And I think that they will.

John Gordon: 00:37:11

To overlook ACH would be to be overlooking the dominant payment

John Gordon: 00:37:17

type in the marketplace today,

Tedd Huff: 00:37:19

my friend Kevin Olson, the payments professor calls ACH, the Royal

Tedd Huff: 00:37:26

King and Emperor of Payments here in the US and a lot of people don't realize it.

Tedd Huff: 00:37:32

Venmo Cash app.

Tedd Huff: 00:37:34

PayPal Zelle, a lot of times use ACH in the background.

John Gordon: 00:37:40

That's right.

Tedd Huff: 00:37:41

When the ledger gets transferred outside of their walls, you'd

Tedd Huff: 00:37:45

be amazed at how often they use ACH.

Tedd Huff: 00:37:48

Now that we've decided to jump into the app store, what I want to do is,

Tedd Huff: 00:37:51

you know, there's one thing I need to get before I ask this question.

Tedd Huff: 00:37:56

I want you to look into the fun crystal ball.

Tedd Huff: 00:38:00

Alright?

Tedd Huff: 00:38:00

Let's look ahead about five years.

Tedd Huff: 00:38:03

And help us understand what do you see happening for fintechs financial

Tedd Huff: 00:38:10

institutions when it comes to digital payments, fraud prevention and validation?

John Gordon: 00:38:18

I believe over the course of the next five years, we are

John Gordon: 00:38:22

going see a consumer empowerment era.

John Gordon: 00:38:26

Come to pass in the United States.

John Gordon: 00:38:29

That may not look like what a lot of the open banking proponent think it'll

John Gordon: 00:38:34

look like, but consumers are going to have increased control over what they

John Gordon: 00:38:40

share and with whom they share it.

John Gordon: 00:38:43

And a result of that, there will be a leveling of the playing field.

John Gordon: 00:38:48

In terms of financial institutions, that isn't to say that the big banks

John Gordon: 00:38:53

won't continue to be the big banks, but I think this era of consumer choice

John Gordon: 00:38:59

is going to give those consumers a normalization of their ability to

John Gordon: 00:39:04

share their data where they want it to go for the purpose they wanted to go.

John Gordon: 00:39:08

The flip side of that coin, if I'm a service provider or a lender or a biller,

John Gordon: 00:39:13

is that open banking isn't necessarily the panacea that some people perceive it

John Gordon: 00:39:20

to be, because now each consumer's going to have some ability to show you the

John Gordon: 00:39:26

account that they want you to see versus giving you the comprehensive picture that

John Gordon: 00:39:33

will allow you to make a better decision.

John Gordon: 00:39:36

So the CFPB had set out this line of demarcation that is ability to repay.

John Gordon: 00:39:44

I'm afraid.

John Gordon: 00:39:45

In the near term, we're making it harder to determine outside

John Gordon: 00:39:50

looking into a consumer's.

John Gordon: 00:39:52

Presented information what they can truly afford.

John Gordon: 00:39:55

And so sometimes we have this consumer empowerment before it has to balance back

John Gordon: 00:40:02

out so that the service providers have the ability to ask for enough information to

John Gordon: 00:40:08

truly deduce what consumers can't afford.

John Gordon: 00:40:12

And so product selection is going be critically important, but there

John Gordon: 00:40:17

again, more and more difficult to.

Tedd Huff: 00:40:20

What is Validify doing to prepare for that?

John Gordon: 00:40:24

At Validify we view ourselves as being in the facts business.

John Gordon: 00:40:30

we are all for consumer inclusion, and we want to make consumer choice the

John Gordon: 00:40:37

driving factor in these things, but at the end of the day, we're also gonna

John Gordon: 00:40:43

provide our clients with the facts about each consumer and their volatility.

John Gordon: 00:40:50

Sometimes when we hear financial inclusion, it's.

John Gordon: 00:40:55

A different way of saying that we're going to overlook certain scenarios about a

John Gordon: 00:41:01

consumer to include them in the process.

John Gordon: 00:41:04

There was a study done, it was a Harris Center active poll that said 71% of

John Gordon: 00:41:09

consumers want to be active in the process for a fairer credit scenario.

John Gordon: 00:41:15

We want to be part of that process.

John Gordon: 00:41:17

More consumers in the United States today have a bank account

John Gordon: 00:41:21

than have an active credit file.

John Gordon: 00:41:23

We're not suggesting we would replace traditional credit, but we do think

John Gordon: 00:41:28

we can augment it, but we will tell the truth about consumers, about

John Gordon: 00:41:32

how frequently they change about scenarios wherein they've instructed

John Gordon: 00:41:37

their banks not to pay off payments that they dutifully signed up for.

Tedd Huff: 00:41:42

All of this has been really, really good.

Tedd Huff: 00:41:45

Like, I love the fact that we dove into the different scenarios, why

Tedd Huff: 00:41:48

it's important to verify how the verifications are happening, how

Tedd Huff: 00:41:53

it's going to impact the way that the parties outside that are either

Tedd Huff: 00:41:58

giving these forms of authentication or being able to offer loans or access

Tedd Huff: 00:42:04

to additional Novo payment rails.

Tedd Huff: 00:42:08

That are able to really figure out what their risk level is.

Tedd Huff: 00:42:13

But before we go, I do want to ask you one last question.

Tedd Huff: 00:42:17

If I am a FinTech founder and I'm looking to solve a problem that requires

Tedd Huff: 00:42:24

me to verify and validate the bank account and the consumer, and you could

Tedd Huff: 00:42:31

only give me one piece of advice to use going forward, what would it be?

Tedd Huff: 00:42:37

Why?

Tedd Huff: 00:42:38

And in only one sentence,

John Gordon: 00:42:40

connections matter.

John Gordon: 00:42:43

Assess that consumer based on all of the information that they give you.

John Gordon: 00:42:50

And the stability of each of those elements working together.

Tedd Huff: 00:42:54

Why is that important?

Tedd Huff: 00:42:55

I mean, it, it goes without saying, but I would love for you to share

Tedd Huff: 00:42:58

why, why you feel that's so important.

John Gordon: 00:43:00

Frequency of change, access based on how many different

John Gordon: 00:43:04

people are accessing an account.

John Gordon: 00:43:07

And none of these things can be looked at individually, so.

John Gordon: 00:43:12

10 years ago when we talked about identity verification, we were

John Gordon: 00:43:16

trying to confirm that a consumer was in fact, who they said they were.

John Gordon: 00:43:19

I think over the course of the last decade, we've realized that consumer

John Gordon: 00:43:24

identity has a lot of different parts.

John Gordon: 00:43:27

It has the email address, the property address, the bank account, all of the

John Gordon: 00:43:31

different pieces that they utilize, and the frequency with which they change.

John Gordon: 00:43:37

Assessing all of them holistically.

John Gordon: 00:43:40

will give you insights and The ability to determine, who that

John Gordon: 00:43:45

consumer is more accurately than looking at any of them independently.

John Gordon: 00:43:51

You have to look at the big picture.

Tedd Huff: 00:43:54

Uh, you do not disappoint.

Tedd Huff: 00:43:56

John, I do wanna say thank you again for hopping on today.

Tedd Huff: 00:43:59

This discussion has been insightful.

Tedd Huff: 00:44:02

It's really helped us to understand how organizations are looking at these.

Tedd Huff: 00:44:08

Data points why it's so important to get it right, how Validify is helping

Tedd Huff: 00:44:14

solve the issues of identifying the accounts and verifying the transactions

Tedd Huff: 00:44:22

and making sure that everybody gets paid what they're supposed to.

Tedd Huff: 00:44:25

At least that's how I'm looking at it.

Tedd Huff: 00:44:26

I really appreciate you going through that, and I love how you're

Tedd Huff: 00:44:30

looking forward to the future.

Tedd Huff: 00:44:33

With all the new regulatory environment that's coming up, as

Tedd Huff: 00:44:37

well as the technology, you're not leaving any stone unturned.

Tedd Huff: 00:44:41

So I really appreciate you doing that today,

John Gordon: 00:44:44

Ted.

John Gordon: 00:44:44

Thanks for having me.

John Gordon: 00:44:45

It's been a lot of fun.

Tedd Huff: 00:44:46

Well, folks that does it for another episode of FinTech

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Confidentials Leaders one-on-one series.

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If you've made it this far, go ahead, share, like,

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subscribe, all that fun stuff.

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And if you wanna find out when the next episode gets released, go ahead and

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head over to FinTech confidential.com and sign up to be notified.

Tedd Huff: 00:45:06

And as always, keep moving forward

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as we wrap up today's episode.

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I've got one last thing for you.

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If you are in the trenches fighting fraud and financial crime, you

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know, it's a complex battlefield.

Tedd Huff: 00:45:19

That's where hawks AI tools for real time payment screening a ML

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transaction monitoring and dynamic customer risk rating come into play.

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These aren't just buzzwords, they're.

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Game changers designed to make your compliance more effective

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and less of a headache.

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Imagine slashing through false positives with precision and giving your

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compliance strategy the edge it needs.

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Head on over to get Hawk ai.com to sign up for a demo and discover how

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their platform can revolutionize how you fight fraud and financial crime.

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This is provided for informational purposes only.

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It is not offered or intended to be used as legal, tax, investment,

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We strive to provide accurate and up-to-date information, but will

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You comply and understand that you should use any of this

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information at your own risk.

Lily Eleven: 00:46:18

Cryptocurrencies are highly volatile financial assets, so research and

Lily Eleven: 00:46:22

make your own financial decisions.